Saturday 15 September 2012

Discussion with Forrest Noble on the new book SITA: Dynamic Universe Model: Blue Shifted Galaxies Prediction: Questions and answers



Dynamic Universe model is a singularity free tensor based math model. The tensors used are linear without using any differential or integral equations. Only one calculated output set of values exists.  Data means properties of each point mass like its three dimensional coordinates, velocities, accelerations and it’s mass. Newtonian two-body problem used differential equations. Einstein’s general relativity used tensors, which in turn unwrap into differential equations. Dynamic Universe Model uses tensors that give simple equations with inter-dependencies. Differential equations will not give unique solutions. Whereas Dynamic Universe Model gives a unique solution of positions, velocities and accelerations; for each point mass in the system for every instant of time. This new method of Mathematics in Dynamic Universe Model is different from all earlier methods of solving general N-body problem.



This universe exists now in the present state, it existed earlier, and it will continue to exist in future also in a similar way. All physical laws will work at any time and at any place. Evidences for the three dimensional rotations or the dynamism of the universe can be seen in the streaming motions of local group and local cluster. Here in this dynamic universe, both the red shifted and blue shifted Galaxies co-exist simultaneously.



In this Dynamic Universe Model, different sets of point masses were taken at different 3 dimensional positions at different distances. These masses were allowed to move according to the universal gravitation force (UGF) acting on each mass at that instant of time at its position. In other words each point mass is under the continuous and Dynamical influence of all the other masses. For any N-body problem calculations, the more accurate our input data the better will be the calculated results; one should take extreme care, while collecting the input data. One may think that ‘these are simulations of the Universe, taking 133 bodies is too less.’ But all these masses are not same, some are star masses, some are Galaxy masses some clusters of Galaxies situated at their appropriate distances. All these positions are for their gravitational centres. The results of these simulation calculations are taken here. 


Here in these simulations the universe is assumed to be heterogeneous and anisotropic. From the output data graphs and pictures are formed from this Model.   These pictures show from the random starting points to final stabilized orbits of the point masses involved.   Because of this dynamism built in the model, the universe does not collapse into a lump (due to Newtonian gravitational static forces). This Model depicts the three dimensional orbit formations of involved masses or celestial bodies like in our present universe. From the resulting graphs one can see the orbit formations of the point masses, which were positioned randomly at the start. An orbit formation means that some Galaxies are coming near (Blue shifted) and some are going away (Red shifted) relative to an observer’s viewpoint.

Questions and Answers



By Forrest:
I’ll start out my questions quickly.
Let’s start by defining Blueshifted galaxies:
(The difference) “between redshift and blueshift is simply a matter of whether z is positive or negative.”Blueshifts (negative redshifts) are an observational determination and nothing more. There can never be argument about their existence or not. There observed quantities are not a matter of argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

More appropriately see the bolding font increase from wiki  see below =snp

Redshift
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the astronomical phenomenon. For other uses, see Redshift (disambiguation).
Absorption lines in the optical spectrum of a supercluster of distant galaxies (right), as compared to absorption lines in the optical spectrum of the Sun (left). Arrows indicate redshift. Wavelength increases up towards the red and beyond (frequency decreases).

In physics (especially astrophysics), redshift happens when light seen coming from an object that is moving away is proportionally increased in wavelength, or shifted to the redend of the spectrum. More generally, where an observer detects electromagnetic radiationoutside the visible spectrum, "redder" amounts to a technical shorthand for "increase in electromagnetic wavelength" — which also implies lower frequency and photon energy in accord with, respectively, the wave and quantum theories of light.

Blueshift
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia(Redirected from Blue shift)
This article is about the physical phenomenon. The term is also used informally in photochemistry to refer to a hypsochromic shift. For other uses of "blueshift" or "blue shift", see blueshift (disambiguation).
Doppler redshift and blueshift

A blueshift is any decrease in wavelength (increase in frequency); the opposite effect is referred to as redshift. In visible light, this shifts the colour from the red end of the spectrum to the blue end. The term also applies when photons outside the visible spectrum (e.g. x-rays and radio waves) are shifted toward shorter wavelengths, as well as to shifts in the de Broglie wavelength of particles. Blueshift is most commonly caused by relative motion toward the observer, described by the Doppler effect. An observer in a gravity well will also see infalling radiation gravitationally blueshifted, described by General Relativity in the same way as gravitational redshift. In a contracting universe, cosmological blueshift would be observed; the expanding universe gives a cosmological redshift, and the expansion is observed to be accelerating.

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By Forrest:
How many blue shifted galaxies are there?
(There are) “almost 7,000 blue-shifted galaxies listed in the NED1 web site. Being blue-shifted means that they are approaching the earth. The velocities ranges from just-above-zero to 8000 km/sec. The vast majority of velocities is less than 200 km/sec.”
http://fittedplane.blogspot.com/2009/12/blue-shifted-galaxies-there-are-more.html

That’s true=snp

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By Forrest:
There are estimated to be about 50,000 galaxies in the Virgo supercluster of which the local group is a part . These galaxies first orbit in their local groups and then mutually orbit their collective center of gravity.  In the course of their orbital motions some seemingly will certainly be coming toward us rather than away from us. The number of  galaxies is accordingly 7,000 galaxies and counting.  I could not find any blue shifted galaxies beyond 100 million light years so maybe there are no Blueshifted galaxies beyond the local supercluster (Virgo).

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/virgo.html


Previously they thought Andromeda is the limiting Galaxy, Here Virgo supercluster is the limit. Some where I saw something I saw something beyond also. Here in this book I showed Q3C273 is blue shifted and it is at a distance of 2.5 Billion ly, which is 1/5th of Bigbang age in years. =snp

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By Forrest:
Although you know I believe the BB model is wrong, theorists assert that space itself is expanding but gravity compensates for it in local groups and maybe superclusters. So seemingly the BB model seemingly could explain the observed extent of Blueshifted galaxies observed.


There are few questions here.
1. What is the size of the local groups in BB model?
2. If gravity is accepted locally, why it is not considered outside?
3. What powers up space expansion?
4. How can space pull away the Galaxies with it? Is it some glue?
 =snp

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Forrest wrote:
snp,
your definition of redshifts:

"In physics (especially astrophysics), redshift happens when light seen coming from an object that is moving away is proportionally increased in wavelength, or shifted to the red end of the spectrum."

I don't think this is a good definition for your "redshift" of spectra. Instead I think your definition for "redshift" should be like your blueshift definition:

"A blueshift is any decrease in wavelength (increase in frequency); the opposite effect is referred to as redshift. In visible light, this shifts the colour from the red end of the spectrum to the blue end."

I understand your definition of "redshift" is in accord with many BB explanations of redshift but I think this definition is limited to only one possible cause for it. Instead I think the general idea for your definition of "redshift"  should be:

It is not my redshift / blueshift definition. It is Doppler redshift similar to sound observations in Newtonian physics. I just followed it. This is definition from wikipedia. =snp

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Forrest wrote:
A redshift is an increase in the wavelength and a decrease in the frequency of EM radiation emanating from extra-galactic sources . In the visible spectra it is a shift of the spectra from its normal appearance, toward a redder appearing colour. For other spectra it involves the lengthening of the observed frequencies' wavelength.  A moving source is only one possible cause for a redshift, expanding space, another, gravitational redshifts, the diminution of matter, intrinsic redshifts of many possible kinds, aether drag, dark matter, dark energy, Higg's particle influences, etc etc, etc.


In Dynamic Universe model expanding space,  the diminution of matter, intrinsic redshifts of many possible kinds, aether drag, dark matter, dark energy, Higg's particle influences, etc. are not supported....No speculations...only experimental results are followed...=snp

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Forrest wrote:
All kinds of possible causes for redshifts and blueshifts. Your redshift the original redshift definition and is based upon the BB model (moving galaxies) and interpretations of galactic redshifts concerning the expanding space hypothesis, which is only one hypothetical cause for the observed redshifts. I think your definition for redshifts and blueshifts should not exclude any possible causes, without mentioning any in particular. Your blueshift definition, is better, in my opinion.

I am Just following Wikipedia definition.  Ok.=snp

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Forrest Wrote:
I checked out:
"Quasar Q3C273 is the most famous, most studied, nearest and most luminous of all the quasars discovered."
Its recessional velocity is measured as 0.14565c and its observed recessional redshift as z(m)=0.1580.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wave-Structure-Matter/message/7267
It has a measured redshift of z = .1580  -- so it seemingly would be incorrect to say it has a quasar with a blueshift. As I said in my last posting, it could have "blueshifting" of its spectra but it does not have a blueshift to its observed spectra. Of course I will read about it in your book. :)


Tony Bear's report in the webpage refers to the same old measurement by Dr. M.Schmidt in 1963 about 3C273. Nothing new. =snp
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Forrest wrote:
Hi again snp,
           It seems to me right now that aside from your equations, the crux of your Dynamic Universe model and related arguments involve this statement:
"So in this model both red shift and blue shift of galaxies are possible simultaneously in all directions and at all distances from us."
As I mentioned before galaxies are either redshifted or slightly blueshifted. There is usually no question at all to it and it is not arguable. since redshifting and blueshifting are measurements. There are only about 7,000 blue shifted galaxies and none beyond a distance of 100 million light years -- none beyond the local supercluster Virgo. Your statement says:  "....in all directions and at all distances."
There are no accepted/ recognized blueshifted quasars. Maybe for one percent of the galaxies there may be a problem of the exact determination of its redshift because absorption lines within the spectra are not distinct enough. Maybe a little higher percentage of quasars could be misinterpreted concerning the exact extent of their redshifts.

Blue shifted quasars not limited to one in thousands. All the quasars, UV, x-ray and Gamma ray quasars / Galaxies are also Blue shifted. I don’t have manpower or computing facilities all the data for all these Millions of such objects. You can give some random object from these categories and I am confident that I can show that one as Blue shifted. Quasars exist at all distances… I am trying another quasar also. I will tell you soon about it’s result.=snp

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Forrest said:
As your book explains, most galaxies and quasars have a wide range of spectra. When they do not have this range, in some cases, then it might be possible to misinterpret a blueshifted galaxy as being redshifted, but this might only be one in a thousand galaxies.


When the object don’t have a wide range of spectra from these categories that cannot be shown as Blue shifted, this is to be studied further =snp

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Forrest Wrote:
Not only can they almost always find the hydrogen spectra omission lines within the total spectra, it is almost always the most prominent and easiest to recognize. It is therefore much easier to find other elements based upon the relative position of hydrogen within the spectral omission lines.
My question is this, what do local blueshifted galaxies (100 million LY or less) have to do with the universe as a whole. Yes the local super cluster is asserted to be rotating but this fact is believed to be generally meaningless as far as the big picture of the universe is concerned.

Local super cluster size is not limited 100 Mly now you may please check . I think it is 2.5 Gly… =snp

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Forrest wrote:
 In the same way blueshifted galaxies seemingly would be insignificant?  So what is the point of blueshifting galaxies?
To my recollection you think the whole universe is rotating relative to itself?

Whole universe may not be visible to us today with the existing Telescopes. With the advent of new telescopes and technologies there will be new horizons. =snp

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Forrest wrote:
What do you think the evidence is to support a rotating universe if blueshifting is only a local phenomena

Evidences can be many…
1. Our SUN position is not the centre of universe. This is indicated by almost random positioning of the Red and Blue shifted Galaxies.
2. For the longer distances we cannot see the peculiar motions. We can see only red or blue shift only...Even as local phenomena, we can see only blue or red shift only, because of large distance of any ext Galaxy. No rotation at any distance may not be visible. 
3. Whole universe may not be visible to us today with the existing Telescopes.
4. Local super cluster size is not limited 100 Mly now you may please check . I think it is 2.5 Gly 1/5th  of Bigbang age…

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Forrest wrote:
One point I think may be relevant concerning my opinion: Although to date there have been no accepted mainstream/consensus interpretations of observations of quasars having small redshifts or blueshifts, the spectra of a number of them and there absorption/ emission lines are ambiguous and I realize that some may later be reinterpreted by the mainstream as being blueshift quasars.

Thank you Forrest, Let’s wait for the results…

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